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May 25, 2007

Comments

Chris

The 今日はちょっと・・・ response to McDonalds throws me off a bit, too. It sounds like he's saying today isn't good for him (even though he's the one inviting James out!).

それはちょっと・・・ would be more appropriate, I think.

Nadir

You suggest he say Boku or Ore, but from what I`ve heard it sounds weird when a foreigner says Ore. It was equated to the example of if a Japanese was in your homeland swearing like a native, it would just be odd even if it`s correctly done. Hope that helps someone...also it`s hyper masculine.

Will

Nadir

Thanks for the comment. Just out of interest, why is it weird for a foreigner to say おれ? Admittedly おれ is very casual, and normally used between male friends in an informal rather than in a formal setting, but it is very natural Japanese, and there is nothin odd about it. And the analogy with swearing is inaccurate - you can speak very casually in English without swearing ("So I sez to 'im, mate, whaddya thinkya doin'?") - using おれ is not rude when used amongst friends, merely informal.

Nadir

I didn`t mean to imply that おれ = swearing, but that if a foreigner uses おれ it sounds just as weird as a japanese person in Australia saying something like, "So I sez to 'im, mate, whaddya thinkya doin'?" or started to swear profusely. You`d think nothing of it if it came from the mouth of your best friend, but you`d look twice if it came from a Japanese person.

Hope that makes sense, it`s one of those words that is totally fine for a Japanese person to say, but just sounds distinctly odd (but not rude) coming from a foreigners mouth.

Chris

Nothing wrong at all with using "Ore" as long as it's with friends or family.

I'd definitely suggest avoiding it while at the workplace or when talking to superiors or strangers. It can definitely come across as harsh if used improperly.

That's exactly the same for a Japanese person, though. Being a foreigner is completely irrelevant.

Nadir

Not to beat a dead horse, but I`ve asked a LOT of Japanese people, and I`m also 1/2 Japanese myself. While some people have said it`s O-K, why bother to risk sounding silly? Boku works just as well for guys and with none of the potential problems. And the point about being a foreigner has everything to do with it.

Chris

>>While some people have said it`s O-K, why bother to risk sounding silly?

But what is silly about using ore? Men use it all the time with their friends and family. It's part of the living language.

>>And the point about being a foreigner has everything to do with it.

Why is that?

Nadir

I've kinda said it 2x already, but you just have to understand the fact that some things are just for the Japanese to use. 'Ore' being one of them.

It would be like a Japanese guy decked out in cowboy gear telling you to reach for the sky. Or the Fonz from Happy Days suddenly being Japanese. Even if perfectly copied you would say 'what the heck...something just ain't right here.'

It doesn't matter at all if every Japanese man you have ever met said it 4000x per day, b/c the second that YOU say it it's weird.

Like any foreign language, it's not enough to simply know grammar and vocabulary. If you don't pay attention to culture and cultural boundaries you'll never truly fit in here. And FYI, the Japanese actually appreciate it when foreigners act a little bit foreign, and leave some Japanese things just to the Japanese.

Will

Nadir

Back to your point about a Japanese person saying "So I sez to 'im, mate, whaddya thinkya doin'? I would be totally impressed that the person had made an effort to talk like an Aussie. If a Japanese person spoke English like that it would make their life much easier in Australia because they are speaking the language that Australians speak. The highest level of language you can aim for is native (or near-native) ability, and you only have this when you listen to what natives say and copy them.

Learning a foreign language, as you correctly pointed out, is not limited to grammar and vocabulary - you need to take into account context, register, culture, formality, familiarity, status and a bunch of other factors. Ore is everyday spoken Japanese. If you are with male Japanese friends and everyone is using ore and you use ore you are conforming to the linguistic norm and will sound natural.

BTW One of my friends is Caucasian but a Japanese citizen. Just out of interest, do you think it is strange for him to use ore?

Nadir

You guys keep putting this in view point that if someone is speaking like everyone else that they are automatically doing the right or the best thing. That may fly in Australia or the States, but it simply isn`t in the case in Japan.

I`ve asked quite a few Japanese I`ve met as well as those that those I`m very close to who have no problem telling me frankly what is what.

That information has also been confirmed by the head of the Japanese language program from Cornell who is a direct student of Eleanor Harz Jorden, an internationally recognized expert on the Japanese and Japanese culture.

It`s all good to listen to what natives say, but in this case you don`t copy them, quite a simple concept.

About your Caucasian but Japanese citizen friend, I`m sure he`s fine around those he`s grown up with, but I bet he has gotten a weird look or two from strangers before.

Chris

Nadir,
Interesting comments, but I am still unclear on where you are coming from. I am also curious why you feel that foreigners must abide by certain rules set by the Japanese, yet you bring up the arguments of non-Japanese such as Eleanor Harz Jordan in your defense. Do you have any texts written by native experts on the language that cite the rules foreigners must follow? It seems like references of those sorts would strengthen your case.

>>That may fly in Australia or the States, but it simply isn`t in the case in Japan.

But why? What are these special guidelines that foreigners must abide to in Japan?

Then let's say that special rules apply for non-Japanese speaking Japanese, then how far do these rules spread?

If I am not allowed to use "ore", why am I allowed to use "boku"?

Can a non-Japanese female use "atashi"?

Should non-Japanese use keigo? Do white people look strange "humbling" themselves?

Would a non-Japanese sound strange interjecting their speech with 四字熟語?

Would a non-Japanese be better off writing letters in only hiragana and katakana to avoid using kanji, which is of Japanese-- er, Chinese origin. Would it be best for us to write in only romaji perhaps?

Should non-Japanese avoid using the local dialect of where they reside and use ONLY standard 標準語? What if they've lived there for 30 years and are the ONLY person in the village who speaks like they are from Tokyo? (Wouldn't that be strange?)

Will also brought up the excellent point of naturalized Japanese citizens. Do you claim that once you obtain Japanese citizenship you can start using "ore"?

What about Zainichi Koreans living in Japan? While they carry Korean passports, they were born and raised in Japan--and speak fluent Japanese. But since they aren't technically Japanese, you would say they can't use "ore"?

And what if a native of Japan moved to America and became an American citizen (and in the process gave up his Japanese citizenship). If he called his family on the phone, would it now sound strange for him to use "ore" because the color of his passport changed?

Nadir

Okay here goes...

>>I am also curious why you feel that foreigners must abide by certain rules set by the Japanese, yet you bring up the arguments of non-Japanese such as Eleanor Harz Jordan in your defense.

This isn`t my personal crusade on what I think foreigners should or shouldn`t do, I was just passing on information on to anyone who reads these comments. And Mrs. Jorden is about as good a reference as I can have. She has studied this her whole life. Just b/c she isn`t Japanese does not mean she can`t have insight into the culture and why certain things are done. Often times it requires an outside view to explain to other outsiders (us).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Jorden

>>What are these special guidelines that foreigners must abide to in Japan?

There is no printed manual on what you can and can`t do. You have to try and ask and probe with what you use. Just b/c something you say is understood does not mean you are using it correctly does it?

>>If I am not allowed to use "ore", why am I allowed to use "boku"?

B/c they don`t carry the same meaning, and if you think they do then you are mistaken. Boku is masculine but pales in comparison to Ore.

The rest of your comments are quite silly and I think you knew that when you posted them so I won`t bother with them. If you want to use Ore then go ahead, at this point I would actually enjoy it.

Chris

Nadir,

>>B/c they don`t carry the same meaning, and if you think they do then you are mistaken. Boku is masculine but pales in comparison to Ore.

But what meaning or connotations does "ore" hold that exclude it from use by foreigners?

The other questions I asked you were valid, by the way. You brought up the argument that certain parts of the Japanese are off-limits to foreigners, so I was enquiring as to how wide the restricted zone is. Asking about people who have changed their citizenship to or from Japanese is very relevant.

And thanks for the info on Ms Jorden.

Chris

...continuing from above.

Nadir,
Do you happen to have links to where Ms Jorden confirms that "ore" should not be used by foreigners? If it was in a book, do you know the title? I'm curious to see what the context of her making those statements was.

Ben

I have also had the experience of even my Japanese friends who I've known for years say to me, "You shouldn't use 'ore,' and in general it sounds odd when foreigners use it."

I think one reason it might sound awkward is that, like Nadir said, it is extremely masculine and assertive. If you use it, it could be seen as you tacitly saying your Japanese is fluent, which it probably isn't. Sure, it may be fluent in most aspects of daily life, but there are most likely many subjects on which you can't hold an intelligent discussion like old literature or carpentering. And how can you assert yourself as a superior or verbally vie for that alpha male spot if you aren't fluent?

Also, owing to the heavily patriarchal nature of Japan, if you use it towards females, I'm assuming when you use "ore" and assert your alpha-male status, you're intimating that as a man, you are of higher status than them. Would you really want to convey such a message? This second point is mostly conjecture, but I don't think it's absolutely baseless.

Anyway, "boku" has more submissive connotations. You would never think of using "ore" with a superior here, but "boku" is OK in non-formal situations. Also, before young boys start using "ore," they always use "boku" when being informal. When you use "boku," you subjugate yourself and smooth things over. "Ore" is confrontational, "boku" isn't.

I think keigo is different for this reason. When you use keigo properly (i.e. not using the elevating words to describe yourself), you're rubbing your partner's ego and humbling yourself. You're not making yourself
seem better than anyone. Of course, you can overuse keigo and make people think you're a brown noser, but it's still not confrontational. I've heard of office people loving the gaijin who can speak proper keigo, so keigo is definitely OK to use.

There are no spaces in Japanese script, so using all hiragana/katakana would be ridiculously difficult to read. I'm assuming romaji wouldn't be a smart choice either because people are used to seeing Japanese words in Japanese. IN the end it ould be more difficult. Basically, I don't think it's equivalent to the "ore/boku" dichotomy.

Regarding what is "off-limits" to foreigners, it's sad, but fact that Japanese people discriminate against non-Japanese (like people of every race discriminate). I read something by a white person who held Japanese citizenship, but was not allowed into certain onsen because he didn't look Japanese. He faught for years in court before they ruled in favor for him. So, if some Japanese don't want "foreigners" to share the same water as them, is it that far-fetched that they would rather not have us "stealing" part of their "identity" by using "ore?"

Concerning the idea that you can only attain native ability by both listening and copying natives, what about when they speak incorrectly? For example, how most Japanese in informal situations don't use certain adverbs correctly by leaving them in adjective-form? If you copy that you're alienating yourself from a certain amount of Japanese when you speak, namely older people and those who want to speak "correct" Japanese.

Or what if you learn Japanese from gangsters when you go out drinking? I'm sure there are tons of words and expressions that most Japanese not only choose not to use, but simply do not know as well, thus alienating you from them if you choose to use/only know those words.

You just have to gage the situation. Of course there will be some people who are fine with you using "ore." I had a girlfriend who had a very strong personality and happened to think it'd be that much nicer if I had a stronger personality than hers, so she encouraged me to use it. However, most Japanese don't. Just like choosing when and where to use dirty words or grammatically incorrect slang, if you want your communication to go as smooth as possible, it's best to avoid using such expressions until you are more familiar with the person and know his/her boundaries. And just like the above-mentioned examples, it's safer to not use "ore." In the end, you can always just ask if it's weird or not.

Chris

>>I think one reason it might sound awkward is that, like Nadir said, it is
extremely masculine and assertive...


But how does expressing your "masculinity" relate to your linguistic ability? I am a man and I cannot change that. What you seem to be asserting is that foreign men should essentially castrate themselves when speaking Japanese.

Japanese offers a clear dichtomy between male and female speech patterns. As a male, I would be foolish NOT to speak like a male.

I also think that it's perfectly normal for a foreigner who may not be fluent in the language to assert themselves as males through social or economic routes. What about the foreign guys working in Roppongi living in the most expensive condos that Tokyo has to offer? They're certainly eligible to use "ore" when talking to their girlfriend or wife, right?

>>Also, owing to the heavily patriarchal nature of Japan, if you use it towards
females, I'm assuming when you use "ore" and assert your alpha-male status...

But this point has nothing to do with race and everything about social standing and gender.

And why assume that "ore" is being used to assert alpha-male status? "Ore" can be used with equals such as friends with no problem.

>>Anyway, "boku" has more submissive connotations. You would never think of
using "ore" with a superior here...

But these rules apply to native speakers as well. Just as Japanese men choose where to use ore, where to use boku, and where to use watashi, so can the foreign speaker.

>>Regarding what is "off-limits" to foreigners, it's sad, but fact that Japanese
people discriminate against non-Japanese (like people of every race
discriminate)...

Discrimination is definitely a problem. But just as Arudo Debito (the man you mentioned) fought back against the blatant and unconstitutional racism, shouldn't foreign speakers stand their ground on the linguistic battlefield as well?

I certainly wouldn't let uninformed native speakers dictate how I speak. That's why I suggest you read academic works, books, and newspapers. Let the language and the society tell me how to speak, not one person's viewpoint.

It's also dangerous to assume that ANY native speaker will have all the answers at any one time.

>>Concerning the idea that you can only attain native ability by both listening
and copying natives, what about when they speak incorrectly? ...

This is about choice, though. Many parts of langauge do not have one correct answer. Just as I modify my speech in English to talk to my boss at the office instead of a friend at the bar, I can choose my speech patterns in Japanese. If I'm talking to a group of Japanese friends who use "improper" Japanese, then I can mimic them. When I speak to someone older, I can use "proper" Japanese. We do the same thing in our native languages, so why not in Japanese?

>>Just like choosing when and where to use dirty words or grammatically
incorrect slang, if you want your communication to go as smooth as possible,
it's best to avoid using such expressions until you are more familiar with the
person and know his/her boundaries...

These rules apply to native speakers as well, though. If I walked up to my boss and used "ore", I would be out of line. If a native speaker walked up to his boss and used "ore", he would be out of line, too--for the same exact reasons. But none of these reasons have anything to do with race.

Faeleia

Both of the give me the creeps, I was beginning to wonder if I was watching some middle-aged gay romance blossom or something. To make up for it, James would play the role of an unsuspecting foreign friend, and the wolf bringing in his bait, that Japanese Kojima guy.

The subtitles would have been better turned off. I confused myself, until I paused and read what was going on. In any case, any learning experience is a learning experience. I'm glad I did come by this video and reading the afterthoughts after all.

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